Writer/director Francis Lee Tells Another Queer Story with 'Ammonite'

Writer-director Francis Lee, who gave us the complex, beguiling queer love story, "God's Own Country," three years ago, is back telling a different, yet just as bold and affecting, queer love story with "Ammonite," opening in theaters November 13th, and starring Kate Winslet and Saoirse Ronan.

Lee turns his camera to 1840s England and centers the narrative on real-life paleontologist, Mary Anning (Winslet), a loner who spent her days hunting fossils along the Southern English coastline of Lyme Regis. Anning was never given adequate credit for her extraordinary work during her lifetime. Instead the patriarchy took all the credit for her famed discoveries.

In "Ammonite," Mary is apprehensively entrusted with the care of Charlotte (Saoirse Ronan), a young woman recuperating from a personal tragedy. These two very dissimilar women from startlingly different worlds find a passion with one another that is palpable. It is at this point in the script that Lee deviates from biopic notions since little is known about the real Anning's personal life. Lee calls it a "an imagined, respectful snapshot of someone's life."

As with "God's Own Country," the dialogue in "Ammonite" is deliberately sparse, the landscape is mysterious and dangerous, and the central relationship is explored in an honest and uncompromising manner.

EDGE had the pleasure of speaking with Lee on the eve of its U.S. bow.

EDGE: Francis, the last time we spoke we were sitting around a table in Manhattan chatting about "God's Own Country." It feels like it was an eternity ago!

Francis Lee: It's a very different world, now.

EDGE: Very different. That film still resonates with me. Were you surprised by the wonderful reception it received?

Francis Lee: Yes, I'm constantly surprised by it, because when we were making it–it was a tiny, little film made for virtually no money, on a hillside in Yorkshire... I was so thrilled by the relationship that I got out of it with both the lead actors, Josh O'Connor and Alec Secareanu. We're still best friends now and speak all the time. And the fact that the film continues to resonate with people–has become almost a touchstone with people in their lives–a film that they go back to watching time and time again, feels incredibly special. And I feel very humble about it. Without wanting to sound too much like an idiot, it does feel like a bit of a legacy, which is wonderful. That is the first film I ever wrote or made.

EDGE: As with "God's Own Country" there's such a degree of refreshing authenticity in "Ammonite." is this something you actively strive for or is it just something that happens organically?

Francis Lee: I think it's part of why I like making films, because the process I use is all about–as much as possible–is all about truth and integrity. Not just about the people or the emotions or the relationships but also about the world that characters live and work in. And to be able to achieve that, I go through quite a specific process myself, and with the actors and the crew.

EDGE: Can you speak to what made you decide to make the central relationship a same-sex exploration?

Francis Lee: I first came across Mary Anning, I think, in 2017, when I was doing the promotional tours for "God's Own Country," around the world. And I was pretty lonely... I was just Googling, randomly, and I came across Mary Anning and I was instantly struck by her and her circumstances. Here was this working-class woman, born into a life of poverty, with no access to education and somehow through her own determination, self-will, ingenuity and the need to survive, rose to being one of, what we would now call, the leading paleontologists of her generation. And there seemed to be an awful lot of parallels there for me, personally as somebody who grew up in rural Yorkshire into a working-class family. Again, no real access to opportunity or education. There was something that felt very personal about it.

And I was fascinated by the society in which she lived. She lived in a very patriarchal society where men owned women. And where Mary's experience of men were them kind of reappropriating her work for themselves. It was also incredibly class-ridden. There wasn't really that much social mobility.

I also wanted to look at an intimate relationship, a deep relationship for Mary, but I knew I wanted that to be respectful and, in a sense, to elevate her. It's well-documented that she never had any kind of relationship with a man. But it is documented that she did have friendships with women. To me it just felt like, within this patriarchal society where men owned women and Mary's experiences with men, it didn't feel right that I should suggest that she had a relationship with a man. Having a relationship with a woman felt like it would be so much more respectful and equal for her and allow for growth within her world. So that's why I decided I would imagine this relationship for her.

EDGE: When did you first think of Winslet for Mary, when did you approach her and were you surprised that she said yes?

Francis Lee: When I write I never write, really, with an actor in mind for various reasons, because I want to concentrate on the character and the person I'm writing. I don't really want to hear anybody else's voice within that. Once I finished the script and we were starting to think about who would play Mary... I knew I wanted an English actor, somebody who would understand, intrinsically, that kind of class system and the landscape in which this film is set. The character is in her mid-40s. And in a sense what I wanted to do was cast somebody who was–I can't think of a better word–who was really famous, because that, to me, would also elevate Mary Anning–give her a bit of a spotlight as it were. So, the list of actors in their 40s, who were British, who were movie stars is quite small. And Winslet was just someone who kept coming to the front of my mind because, whatever she's in, there's always been such a truth about what she's doing.

She got sent the script, via her wonderful agent (who) read it very quickly and rang up Kate and said, "You have to read this quickly, because if you don't, somebody else will take it." So, Kate read it on the same day and the message came back, I think the same day, that Kate wanted to do it. And then Kate and I had a conversation on the phone where we got on incredibly well and we discovered we both liked working in the same way–which is a lot of research, a lot of preparation. So, it was a done deal.

And I felt incredibly blessed and incredibly lucky that somebody like Winslet, who is so fantastically experienced and established, wanted to come and work with me... and was open and willing and excited to come and work in the way in which I work and trusted me enough to be able to push her and orchestrate her performance. Yeah, I'm very blessed because we got on so well. We've become really, really good friends. We talk all the time. And she was a fantastic support and continues to be a fantastic support.

EDGE: Did you find any challenges in working with two big names versus the two then relative unknowns in "God's Own Country?"

Francis Lee: With them as people, no, I didn't. They're both really cool, really down to earth, really normal, really want to do the work. It's about the work, it's not about all the other stuff... The things that I naively did not think about was the amount of attention the film would get, even before it was made, the things that people would write or (that) the paparazzi would turn up every single day when we were shooting. Or the crowds of people. I really wasn't prepared for that amount of attention.

EDGE: As an out queer director you are probably always asked specifically about making queer films and working with queer actors and telling queer stories–questions that aren't asked of "straight" filmmakers when it comes to straight stories. I know I lean in that direction since, as an out queer journalist, I am excited to hear about it, but at some point, it should just be about the work. At what point will It and should it just be about the work?

Francis Lee: That's a good question, Frank!... I think it should be about the work. You're right, I do get asked by journalists if I'm always going to just tell queer stories and I do find it an odd question and I do bounce it back to them and say, first of all I don't see these as just queer stories, they are queer stories. And secondly, would you ask that of a heterosexual director who is making films about heterosexual people? Or a person of color? Or a female director?

There are so many queer stories, even today, being told by non-queer people in film. And I have no issue with that. At all. I think as filmmakers or storytellers one should be able to find empathy, understanding, in other people's lives and tell those stories eloquently. I guess what I find problematic is that it never feels like a level playing field. I choose to tell the stories I tell because I write my own scripts. I purposefully write the stories about people or worlds or characters that I'm fascinated with or obsessed by. But that doesn't necessarily preclude me from being able to direct a heterosexual story. It's a really interesting question. I think it should be about the work myself.

EDGE: Do you know what your next film will be?

Francis Lee: I'm working on two projects at the moment. One that I've been working on a while. My favorite genre is horror... I've always wanted to work in that genre, so I have been busying myself working on a horror script that hopefully is super scary but also is looking at identity and the queer experience and shame. And then there's another project that's a very personal story.

Spoiler Alert–This Question Contains An Ending Spoiler

EDGE: There's a moment at the very end of "Ammonite" where we see the look on Winslet's face that I saw as hopeful, but I realized, the second time I saw it, can be read ambiguously. It's a genius closeup that you use at the very end.

Francis Lee: Thank you, Frank. Yeah, she has all the gifts that you want in an actor and I love transformative actors. I love actors who are shapeshifters, who can play people who are very, very different to themselves, both physically and emotionally. And Kate has all those gifts. And that moment in the end was something–we had very little time to shoot that shot because we were shooting in the British Museum overnight and I think that was the last shot we shot. And they were wanting their museum back. (laughs) They wanted us to leave, before they had to open in the morning, so we talked it through before we did it and she nailed it in one take.

"Ammonite" is in US theaters on November 13, 2020.

Watch the trailer to "Ammonite":