Inside 'The Celluloid Closet': Talking with TCM's Dave Karger and Comedian/Writer Louis Virtel

The seminal 1995 documentary "The Celluloid Closet" (by the Oscar-winning team of Rob Epstein and Jeffrey Friedman) offered audiences a look into Hollywood's homophobic past.

Adapted from the late critic and film historian Vito Russo's 1981 book (revised in 1987), the Peabody Award-winning film offered views of how Hollywood depicted homosexuality over the 20th century, and the results are far from empowering. "These were fleeting images, but they were unforgettable. And they left a lasting legacy. Hollywood, that great maker of myths, taught straight people what to think about gay people. And gay people what to think about themselves. No one escaped its influence," says the film's narrator Lily Tomlin, who was influential in getting the film made in 1995 when funding for the project – which included paying heavy royalties for its copious film clips – was difficult.

In the film, Epstein and Friedman use the template of Russo's book to chronicle how same-sex relationships have been portrayed by Hollywood, from the "sissy," a staple of silent and early sound films, to the "gay as villain" meme that grew in the 1940s and the changes that occurred in the 1960s that led to the more open depiction of queer life in the 25 years that followed. That the film ends in 1995, just as queer cinema was beginning to get its footing, begs the question of a sequel.

"The Celluloid Closet" will be screened on June 26 as part of Turner Classic Movies extended Pride coverage. In addition, host Dave Karger and his guest, critic, writer, and comic Louis Virtel, will present and comment on five films that will be shown over the evening:

8:00 PM: "The Celluloid Closet" (1995)
10:00 PM: "Rope" (1948)
11:30 PM: "The Children's Hour" (1961)
1:30 AM: "Queen Christina" (1933)
3:30 AM: "Victim" (1961)
5:30 AM: "Tea and Sympathy" (1956)

Each of the titles are discussed in "The Celluloid Closet" by some of the individuals who made them, who discuss the difficulties around bringing such sensitive material to mainstream Hollywood, a notoriously homophobic company town. The conversation with Karger and Virtel began with "Rope."

EDGE: Did audiences pick up the gay vibes in "Rope" when first released?

Dave Karger: I don't know. I mean, maybe a small minority of film audiences, especially if they were really familiar with the Leopold and Loeb case material. But I don't think Jimmy Stewart, who plays the the thrill killers' prep school teacher Brandon, even suspected that his character might be gay. The idea of him being gay never existed in his mind. He wouldn't have known what you are talking about.

Louis Virtel: What's fascinating about watching "The Celluloid Closet" is realizing how many people who were around at the time and making these movies were thinking about it. That is, the queerness of the of the material they worked on. In "The Celluloid Closet," Farley Granger says: "We knew they were gay, but we never said anything about it. It was 1947." And it's fascinating to hear Gore Vidal talk about "Ben Hur" and how Charleston Heston had no idea about any queerness in this movie. Vidal was an active gay player in Hollywood at the time, who also wrote the screenplay to "Suddenly, Last Summer." I think people thought queerness only existed in hints and nuances – that nobody was having any implicit conversations about it. But Vidal shows them wrong.

EDGE: "The Children's Hour" was a famous play that had been filmed once before with any mention of its homosexuality excised. Then, with the relaxation of the production code, William Wyler, who directed the original film, returned to it, but returning its gay content. Still, it is a movie where the gay character kills themselves in the end...

Dave Karger: To remake the film in 1961 was bold at the time, but now, when we look back at it again, the homosexual kills himself at the end, which became a standard Hollywood trope for gay people. I do think the movie's heart was in the right place and it was trying to be progressive in as much as it could in your early 1960s, when the production code was still pretty much in effect. And this led to obstacles. They couldn't use the word lesbian. They couldn't use the word gay. Shirley MacLaine says in "The Celluloid Closet" about how the lesbianism was not discussed with either the director or her co-star Audrey Hepburn. She's written in other places that she did envision her character as being in love with Hepburn's character, and was excited to film some scenes that showed that more explicitly, but they were not filmed. And Lillian Hellman, the playwright, did not approve of "The Children's Hour" when it was finished. She didn't like the movie, But I'm glad it exists. I think it's a really interesting time capsule, but it also, I think, is an example of potential that was not fully realized.

Louis Virtel: When I watch a movie made before 2000, I don't expect to see a sterling representation of queer people. But to have a film with such a rich performance as Shirley MacLaine? I'm thankful we have it, and I'm thrilled to watch it.

EDGE: One of the tropes discussed in "The Celluloid Closest" is that of the "sissy," which was one of the film's first stereotypes: Little skinny white men with mustaches who speak in an exaggerated and effeminate manner. What do you think of the this stereotype?

Louis Virtel: As Harvey Fierstein says in "The Celluloid Closet," he identifies as a sissy. And let me tell you something, so do about 95% of my friends. I'm one of them. So, when I see them in a movie, even though they were maybe written cynically by some straight, homophobic screenwriter at the time, I like it. So it's like, if it's damaging to you, that's your problem. They are fabulous and cool to see. I still think that a lot of people believe queer people were invented 25 years ago, so that there might be even [be] a hint of it in an old movie is getting closer to the truth.

Dave Karger: There are movies where the sissy character is the is the best character in the movie. A couple of years ago we showed, during Pride Month, a pre-Code 1930s Constance Bennett movie called "Our Betters" [directed by gay director George Cukor] in which there is a character played by actor Tyrell Davis, who turns up towards the end as a tango instructor and steals the show. He's never looked down upon. He's never ridiculed. He's someone who they're all very excited is around. So, I think there are examples of a sissy character that feel triumphant to me, because they're not ridiculed.

EDGE: You also include "Queen Christina," the 1933 biopic which gay-washes the real lesbian queen's life....

Dave Karger: And again, that's a film that couldn't go all the way as far as telling the story in true authentic fashion. But yeah, I mean, there's just so many great lines: "I shall die a bachelor," for instance. It's just a landmark role for Greta Garbo, and one that, particularly, LGBTQ audiences can just relish.

Louis Virtel: This movie is also important because I don't think people understand that Greta Garbo had swag. She walks into that room, and the way she locks lips is so eye popping. It's so fabulous. I think our culture is obsessed with a woman with a certain gait, and a certain presence, and a certain authority, just, like, having her way with a roomful of people. There's something about that character we're obsessed with, and the authority she possesses. And Greta Garbo in that movie also has that quality. So there's a real timeless, and maybe even timely element, to what she does there.

EDGE: "Victim," which came from England in 1961, is a revelation. At last homosexuality is identified as a social issue – in this case, the reason for blackmail. Can you both describe to me your reaction to seeing "Victim" for the first time?

Dave Karger: Oh, I couldn't believe that it had been made when it was made. And I was just so excited about it, and then even more happy to read that, despite everything that it did or did not do for Dirk Bogarde's career, he considered it his proudest achievement as an actor. So it was before its time, and it's thrilling to watch.

Louis Virtel: I saw "Victim" because of my friend, film critic Alonzo Geraldo, who had it on the top of his list. And I could tell, based on his enthusiasm about it, it wasn't a minor queer film. It was, like, "We are film that matters!" So, I go went in knowing there's something special here that I don't know about, and, my God, was he correct. Dirk Bogarde is so fabulous in it, too. We should be bringing up his name way more often.

EDGE: "Tea and Sympathy" echoes with gay resonances, not only in its story about a young man bullied because he's thought to be gay, but its director, Vincente Minnelli was said to have been a closeted gay man. Why is this film included?

Louis Virtel: The reason I needed to see "Tea and Sympathy" is because I feel like recently on the internet, at least among classic movie fans and queer movie fans, there has been a renaissance to celebrate Deborah Kerr. She never won the Oscar, but she was nominated six times. And she has such a rewarding screen presence – she just has an eminent watchability. There's a warmth there, and authority in her performances, and so I needed to see her in this movie. I don't consider it my favorite of the Deborah Kerr movies I've seen, but I think she is wondrous in it.

Dave Karger: Even people who haven't seen the movie, they know the line: "Years from now, when you talk about this, and you will, be kind." I like those movies that people know a line or two from even if they haven't seen it, because then they can experience the whole story when seeing it. There's that kind of excitement when you hear that line in the context of the actual story. And, again, it is a movie that you don't hear "gay," you don't hear that word, but it's understood. It's just really interesting to see how these filmmakers were able to project everything that they needed to, given all of the limitations of the Code.

EDGE: If you could each program one film for the series, what would they be?

Dave Karger: I've never had a chance to discuss "Making Love." I would love to have Harry Hamlin come on the network, because as we learned in "The Celluloid Closet," it was a really interesting choice for him. It also had not the best effect on his career at the time, but he's done just fine since, so that's a movie that I would love, that I hope pops up in the future. I don't know if there's rights issues or what, but I'm crossing my fingers for them.

Louis Virtel: Well, you know what's interesting is, I'm also just fascinated by movies that have really nothing gay about them, and that queer people have all sort of gathered around and still adopted as meaningful. The one that always comes to mind, at least in terms of gay men that I know of all ages, is "Ordinary People," which is, you know, a movie about a kid in the suburbs whose brother dies, he has this aloof mother and confused father. There's something about the stifled suburbs, the emotional withholding, and needing someone to open up to that I feel like really resonates with queer people, even though that is just not a gay movie. There's nothing gay about it. But there's something about Timothy Hutton's character, that performance, that feels very real to me. So, to talk about "Ordinary People" as a gay movie that has nothing gay in it would be fabulous.